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RE: "Starter" Kit

FattFishy — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:30:50 GMT

Yup, you don't see many people that have fish dying over and over again stay into the hobby for more than 1 month or so. I would say that this product does keep fish alive, letting the new hobbyist research more about what to do, what other fish, etc. So now, they're dedicated people, not just some "throw in some water and fish" people...

But then again, some may think it's too easy and never take care of them later...

RE: "Starter" Kit

JCHAMPAGNE — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 06:31:01 GMT

and MOA,

You are right that they should, but you know the realities of the world as well as any.

RE: "Starter" Kit

JCHAMPAGNE — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 06:29:28 GMT

I understand your point of view about being a serious fish steward.

But, not everyone is as smart, capable, willing, etc as the rest of us and they are still going to buy fish. Let's not miss the big picture. I think the point of David's product is to help the beginner not kill the fish. And in this case the fish is what we are trying help survive. His product is easy to use and understand for the beginner. If there wasn't a product for the beginner to help them with their first tank, they would be much more likely to kill the first fish they get, then the second, etc.

If the beginner experiences a successful 1st tank, they may be inclined to learn more. They might get more and more interested.

It isn't a one size shoe fits all world. I think products, like David's, that can help the average consumer and may potentially bring more people into our hobby are products we should promote.

If everyone that owned a fish were as interested in their fish as we are, this forum would have millions of members.

David, I think your product is a savy business venture. Our level of interest is not the norm.

RE: "Starter" Kit

math-only aquarium — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:16:59 GMT

Thanks, Princess.

MOA

RE: "Starter" Kit

princessotfu — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:33:43 GMT

I sort of agree with you MOA, although not completely. Any "quick-start" methods make me nervous until they've been proven, and I would think that it would be infinitely more useful for beginners to simply do the research.

David, I didn't realize that the intent was to let the beginner add the fish the same day. I really think there should be some sort of warning in there NOT to add them until they are sure it is cycled, that is, when ammonia and nitrite are 0. You don't even have to add an ammonia source to the kit, just tell them to add so much fish food for a few days, making sure to test. The problem that I think is going to be common is that you're still going to have beginners overstocking from the very beginning, and you still have pet store employees assuring these poor people that 1ppm ammonia is "fine" and .5 ppm nitrite "is in the safe range and don't worry about it. I worry also, about instilling the "when there's a problem, dump in chemicals" mindset in some from the very outset.

I'm not against trying to make beginner tanks easier on the fish, while the owners go through the learning curve. But I'm wondering now if maybe it might make more problems later on down the road.

RE: "Starter" Kit

math-only aquarium — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:03:56 GMT

...Well they should! :D

Oh well, I guess I can't win every time. Thanks guys.

MOA

RE: "Starter" Kit

JCHAMPAGNE — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:29:01 GMT

I would also like to add that although Moa"S mathematical equations are very helpful and unique, people in general don't associate an emotional purchase (like buying pets) with mathematical logic.

Technology makes life for all of us better and should be used accordingly.

RE: "Starter" Kit

filipem — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:00:45 GMT

math-only aquarium (8/19/2008)

...I guess I'd rather foster patience than feed an insatiable hunger for more and more. What beginners want to do and should do are often two different things. If you give them an excuse to not do research or take a more active role in their hobby, then the will think that the rest of their hobby works the same way. They will be impatient and want to add 20 fish to the little ten-gallon aquarium; they also will not know what to do should something go wrong with their cycle if they don't have first-hand experience with the cycle.

My basic point is this: If you tailor to the beginner, where do you draw the line? When does the beginner become responsible? Why shouldn't a beginner have to learn the long way so that we can be sure that they are dedicated to the fish and not simply to the novelty of the idea?

Personally, do-it-quick methods methods scare me because they showcase the wrong attitude, which, in turn, can ruin the beginner later on. I really don't want impatient people in this hobby. I want ones that are wholely dedicated to their fish and are willing to take time to research a purchase. The product you're talking about would foster same-day purchases; people who get the inkling to keep fish would walk out with a tank the same day, without doing any real research or seeing if their personal goals are conducive to dedicated fishkeeping.

All-in-all, this is a great method for preventing initial mistakes, but it cannot and will not replace a truly dedicated aquarist. As such, you have a nice get rich scheme: suck them in with a seemingly simple product that encourages them to buy hundreds of dollars worth of equipment. Hmm, what a nice racquet. Ironically, my unwillingness to advocate such improper attitudes is what got me kicked out of PetSmart.

Ok, I'm done ranting and must admit that this single product won't bring down civilization or anything, but it does represent some shaky ground. In itself it's not bad, but be very careful with your advertising methods.

Respectfully,

MOA

No arguments here. But the reality is many people who start up a fish tank have no idea what they are getting themselves into and the run into problems because they think it's a matter of adding water, fish and it's good to go. I thought this way at the beginning. I wanted a tank because I wanted to have a conversation piece in the family room. 10 months later I find myself with three tanks, trying to breed fish and grow plants... and a wife who thinks I've lost my mind :P

This hobby has a steep learning curve. It may take longer for a child to comprehend the dynamics of the nitrogen cycle then an adult. Also, some people go into it with help and research, others simply don't think there is anything to it and they have a "how hard can it be?" approach to it. A starter kit like this IMO would benefit both approaches. Keeping the fish alive is the goal here. After all no amount of research can equal experience.

The goal should be to make this hobby as bullet proof as possible for new aquarists who don't know anything about keeping fish. You should never draw a line on trying to simplify keeping fish for a beginner. Nothing discourages a beginner more then to find their first dead fish. I remember finding my first dead as I'm sure most of you do. The longer the fish stay alive the more likely it will drive the beginner to stay in the hobby.

RE: "Starter" Kit

math-only aquarium — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:24:35 GMT

...My point exactly. I really don't want to see anyone in this hobby besides the truly dedicated. IMO, I know.

MOA

RE: "Starter" Kit

FattFishy — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:40:13 GMT

The way I see it is I don't think someone who wants fish would want to wait nearly 2 months. I'm just trying to say, many first time fishkeepers want fish now. I know, it's just not right in our point of view, but they really have no idea.. it might even make them stay away from the hobby because of so many things to do, buy, and wait. But of course there are still people that are diligent enough to actually wait for a great environment for their fish...

RE: "Starter" Kit

math-only aquarium — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 09:57:12 GMT

Respectfully,

MOA

RE: "Starter" Kit

FattFishy — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:58:10 GMT

Hm...

or... QuickFish

I dunno. I'm out.

Anyone else?

RE: "Starter" Kit

JCHAMPAGNE — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 05:49:09 GMT

I really like the F.I.S.H fattyfish. I would suggest adding an A to the beginning for Add Fish in Some hours.

I like it though.

RE: "Starter" Kit

FattFishy — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:33:09 GMT

Some names:

Instant Cycle

F.I.S.H. Stands for: Fish In Some Hours

C.Y.C.L.E. Stands for: Cycling Your Crazy Little Ecosystem

RE: "Starter" Kit

braden — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:23:27 GMT

when I started i had no clue what i was doing, fortunetly the guy at the store did so was lucky, but yeah thats a great idea

RE: "Starter" Kit

David Lass — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:47:57 GMT

Sure -- I would love to hear any suggestions for a name.

And, MOA, the idea behind the starter kit is to let new hobbyists put fish in the day after they start the kit. All of the products I have tested work just fine, and introducing fish is the way to start the Nitrogen Cycle. My epxerience hanging aroiund lfs's and talking to hobbyists is that new folks are simply not going to look at an empty tank -- and given that fact, the idea of the starter kit is to make them successful adding some fish the day after they set the tank up.

RE: "Starter" Kit

math-only aquarium — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:49:08 GMT

Also, you may want to add a bottle of ammonium hydroxide (around 3 oz.)to the kit so that the beginners can feed the bacteria and be sure that their "instant cycle" is atually working. (Testing without an ammonia source doesn't prove a thing.)

MOA

RE: "Starter" Kit

JCHAMPAGNE — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:28:07 GMT

Great idea. Make a million!

What shall you call it? Ask the forum for ideas. It must be catchy. Let's make it fun.

Like:

Save Willy starter kit.

RE: "Starter" Kit

LadyBarbara001 — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:25:48 GMT

David, yes I do understand why you can't recommend a particular product...just hoped I'd luck out with someone who had some experience with it. I don't particularily trust the info I get at any store, I tend to double check with sites like this, and other info sites before I make any purchase. I know more about tanks than most of the people I speak with, and I am by no means an expert....a lucky beginner, perhaps.

Appreciate all the advise, and I may do some experimenting with some of the products on my own....although if I buy too many more tanks my husband may divorce me...LOL

RE: "Starter" Kit

FishCreek — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:13:37 GMT

I don't think anyone can go wrong purchasing one of these kits irregardless of which kind of water testing that is used. The purpose is to Educate. It would also be great to see a kit of this caliber included in the boxed aquarium kits that are out there.

This also would be good for all the LFS out there as a guide on the "cycle". We all know that there are some inexperienced folks working in the stores.

RE: "Starter" Kit

David Lass — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:37:44 GMT

Sorry, but I can't recommend one brand over another. Why don't you ask them at Petco what they recommend, and if they use or have tested any of them. I hope you understand why I can't get into taking sides for one brand or another.

RE: "Starter" Kit

LadyBarbara001 — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:21:43 GMT

David, is there one you prefer or can recommend? I have a friend that works at Petsmart, and she's always looking for new products to recommend to her customers.

I started with an old tank from Craigslist and took 75% of the water (boy did my Jeep smell!!) and started all my other tanks using that one as a base. I do use Cycle in my tanks, but I didn't know it would actually do the entire job.

I really appreciate learning new things here.

RE: "Starter" Kit

David Lass — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:52:01 GMT

That used to be the case, and Marineland Bio-Spira was really the only game in town. Over the past few years the mfrs have developed two technologies, both of which work.

1) Liquid live bacteria -- there are a number of these that work fine, and do not need to be refrigerated. They do, however, need to be protected from excess heat and I'm not sure how careful distributors are in getting the stuff to your lfs. Some of them need to be refrigerated after you open the bottle. I've tested a number of these, and they all work. "Work" being defined as adding the full tank of fish the day the bacteria starter was added, and having zero ammonia, zero nitrite and some nitrates the next day. That tells me that the Nitrogen Cycle is working.

2) Dry bacteria, with yeast and enzymes -- I've also tested a number of these products, and they also work, albeit not instantly as the liquid products do. With the dry products I treated with one dose, gave a second dose the day after, and added all the fish the second day. Zero ammonia, a little nitrite and nitrates starting to build. Nitrogen Cycle going.

My bottom line is that using any of the "brand name" products for kick-starting the Nitrogen Cycle is infinitely better than not using anything. If you have the simple, inexpensive test strips you can clearly tell whether the tank is cycled enough to add all of the fish you would like.

RE: "Starter" Kit

LadyBarbara001 — Sun, 17 Aug 2008 16:17:59 GMT

OK, my question, as simple as it may seem, is how to keep the bacteria alive? Some of the so-called instant agers don't work so well...I thought the best bacteria supplements had to be refrigerated.

If it worked, I'd recommend it in a heartbeat!

RE: "Starter" Kit

GRUBYGUPPY — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 23:37:23 GMT

Most new and some not so new spend more time brewing coffee than thay do testing their tanks. Your kit idea is great,make hte kits up and sell them.By the # of posts on here som new to the hobby you could do well.

RE: "Starter" Kit

painthorse77 — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:01:15 GMT

I think that is a great idea. I would suggest once you got the kit up, try getting fish tank manufactures to put them in with the tank kit, so when a beginner buys a tank they will have the kit as well. For the price you are asking, you are getting a lot of information and conditioners. I wish there was something like this when I first started fish keeping 10 years ago.

RE: "Starter" Kit

David Lass — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:57:33 GMT

Thanks for all of your input. Hopefully we can get this on the market soon.

RE: "Starter" Kit

lilcherna — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:44:47 GMT

yeah, but i think the strips are just meant so you can check it while youre cycling because theres only 5 (6?) so then when you run out you can buy whatever kind you want. although a beginner would probably buy the strips again because they knew how to use them and they might think that, because they were in the kit theyre the better kind.

but i would probably use this, out of laziness, and its not a bad price.

RE: "Starter" Kit

Conner — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:44:11 GMT

I wish there'd been something like this on the market when I started fish keeping! It's a great idea, and the simpler it is the more successful it is likely to be. I think the test strips are better for it than liquid tests simply for ease of use for a beginner. The more complicated it gets, the less likely they are to be diligent about things in the beginning.

RE: "Starter" Kit

Nikita — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:04:16 GMT

Eh, I prefer liquid tests but this product is marketed for the beginner, and I think strip tests are more of a beginner's thing.

We want something that is simple and easy so that more people are able to get into this hobby the right way. I think that the strip tests are a better idea, and adding liquid tests would up the cost substantially. Working with toxic chemicals isn't something I'd recommend to someone just starting to "get their feet wet", as it were.

For an advanced hobbyist, I advocate strip tests because I feel that well-made ones (quality counts) are more consistent. For the beginner, strip tests serve their needs well and are so much easier to use.

RE: "Starter" Kit

FishCreek — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:52:09 GMT

I view this kit as being a very good thing for beginners. And the price is just right. With the contraversy between test strips and liquid tests, though, would it be possible for the manufactures to make a half-size line of the liquid test kits just for the beginner kit that you describe? I realize that this may not be feasible do to with the manufacturing costs now a days and it would probably cause the price to be higher than the beginner might want to pay. OR maybe make both kinds available to the consumer?? Test strips will be better than not testing at all though and can only certainly help provide the beginner with the right tools. GREAT THINKING!!! Hope I see it on the store shelves soon!!

RE: "Starter" Kit

David Lass — Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:59:17 GMT

Yes -- the info sheet and instructions will be simple, but hopefully cover the basic of the Nitrogen Cycle, and the simple water chemistry of a fish tank. It continues to amaze me that folks can handle the testing for a swimming pool, but doing the same for an aquarium is too difficult.

Thanks for the input.

RE: "Starter" Kit

BonnieandClyde — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:29:44 GMT

i like it but you should maybe add an info sheet telling people why they need the things in it and what it is used for.

RE: "Starter" Kit

princessotfu — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:24:55 GMT

I think it's perfect. Not so much stuff and information that they are put off, but enough to hopefully get a tank started without too much trouble, and enough to let them know there is more to it than just adding water and fish.

RE: "Starter" Kit

FattFishy — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:05:06 GMT

This is a pretty nice kit... I don't see anything left out.

"Starter" Kit

David Lass — Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:56:38 GMT

Please let me know what you guys thinks about this as a new product.

Aquarium Starter Kit -- would consist of: 1) Water conditioner/dechlorinator, etc. 2) Bacteria etc. to start the Nitrogen Cycle -- would populate with bacteria in a day or two, 3) 6 ammonia test strips and 6 5-way test strips (pH, Hardness, Alkalinity, nitrite and nitrate).

The idea of the kit is for folks starting new tanks to have what they need to get the Nitrogen Cycle established in the tank. The target sell price for the kit would be between $6 and $9. Hopefully this kit would help to avoid New Tank Syndrome, and get new hobbyists into the habit of testing their water.

What do you think? Thanks for taking the time to give me your input.