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RE: I suck at this fish thing

Christine — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:31:06 GMT

verti89 (8/25/2008)

and for what it's worth I realized about 2 weeks into this whole thing that the people at my local Petsmart are a little light on the smart part...

Good luck with your tank. I am new at this as well. Yes I don't go to petco for advice anymore. When i set up my new tank. They sold me 13 fish to put in at once. Even when they knew that I was new and the tank had no fish and cycled for 3 weeks.

I am jealous of your ammonia levels. I can't get mine down. Someone is working with me on that right now.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

math-only aquarium — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:43:12 GMT

You could also try the spreadsheet in the pinned topics under "Freshwater Stocking Guide." It will have some good recommendations with regard to number of fish, cleaning schedule, etc.

MOA

RE: I suck at this fish thing

LadyBarbara001 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:37:20 GMT

Before I start this one final question. Should I start the cycling process with my tank as is, or should i completely break it down and clean it all out to get any bad stuff out?

At this point it doesn't matter, you will have to start the cycle either way. If you feel better cleaning it, then do so. Just remember to dechlorinate the water you add, and no soap to clean. I have a few scrubbies and things for cleaning that I use no where else, so there are no chemicals or soaps. You can use a vinegar and water mix to clean, just make sure you rinse VERY well!

RE: I suck at this fish thing

verti89 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:03:25 GMT

Before I start this one final question. Should I start the cycling process with my tank as is, or should i completely break it down and clean it all out to get any bad stuff out?

RE: I suck at this fish thing

princessotfu — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:57:54 GMT

Like most, your pet store employee has the right information for the wrong business. Letting your filter media fully dry out kills off most bacteria. The thing is, you don't want to kill your bacteria, because your bacteria are helpful.
You don't need the charcoal and it won't last long anyway. I dump it, and maybe add more of the ceramic things, also known as "biomedia." These are what hold all your beneficial bacteria.
They were also correct that ammonia is bad, but incorrect in the way to get rid of it. You don't need chemicals, and you don't need filter inserts. Cycling your tank properly will take care of that.
When you are cycling your tank, you are growing populations of bacteria to take the ammonia that your fish produce as waste and process it into a less dangerous form. During the 4-6 weeks of cycling, you will first grow the bacteria that take the ammonia and convert it to nitrites, which are still dangerous to your fish. After that, you will start growing the bacteria that take the nitrite and convert it to nitrates. A healthy, normal aquarium should show 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5-20ppm nitrate or so.
If I read right, you don't currently have any more fish in the tank, correct? If so, you want to do fishless cycling, which you can do a few different ways. I would recommend searching the forum for the articles and topics on fishless cycling and the nitrogen cycle. The advantage of this is that you may cycle slightly faster, since you don't have to change the water, you don't stress or kill any fish during the cycling process, and you don't necessarily have to be testing every day.
Once your tank is properly cycled and stocked, your maintenance should consist of weekly water changes of about 25%, and you should test your water every week before changing it.

I wouldn't necessarily boycott your pet store because of the lack of knowledge there, unless you find another one around you that is crazy better. I would, however, let a manager know of your concerns and always make sure you do your own research on a topic or product before using it. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and many other stores won't have any more knowledge than this one.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

GRUBYGUPPY — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:43:55 GMT

I don't know about the algae,never worried about it because I had fish that needed it and controled it for me. As for testing, I test twice a wk during cycling and then once a wk after,I also keep a written log so I can see if there any spikes or drops in ammonia,nitrite,nitrate or ph. I know testing can be a pain,but if you set a day for it and follow it, then it becomes second nature. I also test if I notice anything strange with the fish.A good set of test kits is not that expensive and the cost more than pays for itself on the money saved on lost fish.Like most of us you eventually end up with more tanks,more fish and testing can save fish and monet in the long run which means you have more to spend on other things:cool:.Just take your time, and be patient and things will fall into place.Loosing fish can be hard on a fishkeeper....stressed fish means sick fish means dead fish means stressed fishkeeper,not a happy cycle.Read books,magazines and the posts here, you will be a better and happier fishkeeper for it.We can't say you will not loose any more fish, but will be a heck of a lot less than you have been,besides, live fish are prettier and more fun to watch;)

RE: I suck at this fish thing

LadyBarbara001 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:12 GMT

First off, hi! You need a new fish store, or be armed with your own info before buying a thing! Never ever rinse your biological filtration (generally some sort of foam, pads, balls, whatever) in tap water. When this gets dirty, rinse it in the water you are removing from the tank, and immediately replace it in the filter. Don't let it dry out, or you will remove a good portion of your "good" bacteria.

I wouldn't recommend doing a 100% water change...although it seems as if you are at the beginning of the cycle and it may not make much of a difference right now. Don't buy any fish right now.

You should be doing water changes weekly, of 25-50%. I tend to do 30-50% once a week. Always use a declorinator, and don't try to adjust your ph. Most fish you will be interested in will adapt to your water a lot easier than to have your ph go up and down on them, stability is the key.

I'm no expert on Cichlids, so I won't try to answer that question about stocking.

As for algae, is your tank in sunlight? That tends to bring out the algae. Live plants will help with algae, but most Cichlids see that as something to destroy. A small algae eater may be your friend here, but again, Cichlids are aggressive, and may kill something small. You might just want to get an algae scraper, and manually remove it.

Before buying any fish, you definitely need to cycle your tank. There are a lot of good articles on this forum about that, but basically you need a test kit and some form of ammonia or fish food. Your good bacteria needs to be able to control the ammonia, which is why you are having problems with your tank.

Good luck!!

RE: I suck at this fish thing

verti89 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:41:36 GMT

First off thanks a ton for the help, for some reason I didn't apply my knowledge of Bestbuy employees to the petstore realm...

I wish i could take pictures...but you were right I am without fish. So a few questions before I begin said 4 week cycling.

Should I clean everything out and get all the algae out and everything then refill, dechlorine, and start my 4 weeks?

What is the best way of reducing the algae situation?

Assuming my tank size, what is the appropriate number of 3-4 inch fish? How often should I do said 25-50% changes? Will the chlorine from that new water be toxic even if I immediately treat it? How often do I need to change the things in my filter (fluval 305), there are 6 compartments and I have it half charcoal bags and half these white porous tube thingies, and then the 4 spongie filter things on the side. I basically have 2 sets of everything and when I was cleaning out the tank I was rinsing those off and setting them out to dry (the aforementioned pet store guy said if they could completely dry out there was no need to keep buying new stuff). And finally, for now, how often should is reasonable for testing the chemical balance of the tank?

I will heed your words and keep you updated, thanks a ton.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

GRUBYGUPPY — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:26:24 GMT

Well the answer to your problem is simple, it takes 4wks for a tank to cycle properly.Taking the fish out of the tank and putting them in water(taken from the the tank I hope!)Draining all the just cycled water out,filling the tank with uncycled water and then putting the fish into it. THIS IS suicude for the fish,they can't adjust nor cope with the ammonia,nitrite and nitrate levels!!!If you continue this way you might as well take the money your going to spend on fish,walk outside and throw it into the air and let it blow away.I gather you have no fish in the tank now,so start from the begining,let the tank cycle 4wks,check the ammonia,nitrite and nitrate levels after the 4wks,if they are ok then add your fish(slowly a few at a time) and when it is time for a water change,ONLY 25% or so.DON'T GIVE UP,chalk it up to lack of information.Let us know how things go.:)

Don't take my reply personally, this happens to a lot of fish keepers.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

FattFishy — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:53:07 GMT

Not to be rude against any big chain pet store but usually the employers are rushed through the training without any detailed information about fish.

First off, stop doing the 100% water changes. Only do partial 25-50% water changes. It just stresses your fish big time when they're stuck in a bowl for about 1 1/2 hours.

Next, your alkalinity isn't a problem. High alkalinity is actually pretty good; it prevents any pH fluctation that can kill fish or fatally injure them. Trying to lower the alkalinity is growing to cause more trouble than stopping it.

Lastly, it's hard to tell what fish is which without pictures. Can you try taking a few?

RE: I suck at this fish thing

Nikita — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:51:30 GMT

I'm pretty sure I have your problem.

You do full water changes and you clean your filter when you do them.

This is a bad thing.

You should never change all the water at once. Once a week changes of 25% of the water is far better. What's happening is that you're removing the water and also killing the beneficial bacteria in your gravel and filter by cleaning.

Good bacteria complete your nitrogen cycle. They turn ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. You have no ammonia (good) and no nitrite (good) but you also have no nitrates - and this is bad. It means your water isn't cycled properly. You're forcing the tank to re-cycle itself when you do this, which means the ammonia and then nitrite levels will spike, causing toxicity to your fish. This is what's killing them. They simply cannot take the high amounts of toxic chemicals that result from your beneficial bacteria levels being upset.

Having a small amount of nitrates in your tank is a good thing because it means your bacteria cultures are doing their job. If you don't have them, something is likely off with the cycle.

So you need to check your chemistry frequently, with just a few fish in the tank (or fishless cycle). Changing 25% of the water once a week is a good baseline to follow.

Good luck when/if you decide to start again.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

verti89 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:42:38 GMT

and for what it's worth I realized about 2 weeks into this whole thing that the people at my local Petsmart are a little light on the smart part...

RE: I suck at this fish thing

verti89 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:39:35 GMT

No worries at all guys I definitely appreciate anything since I apparently got in over my head...

I change my filter cartridge about once a month when I do a full tank water change. (I don't do water changes at other times, and I know this is part of the problem :( )I typically syphon the water out and wipe off the walls, rinse the rocks as well as I can, clean the decorations, syphon again then refill the tank. I always dechlorinate, then test the chemical levels. (I keep my fish in a smaller tub with the previous tank water and my water pump blowing bubbles in there) I use my self-test kits I bought and ensure all chemicals are in the good/idea range. I haven't kept a specific log but I will test it right now. Also my kit reference is as follows in terms of the areas my water falls in.

Average(NOW)

Ammonia: 0/0
Nitrate:0/0
Nitrite:0/0
Hardness:soft/soft
Chlorine:0/0
Alkalinity:150/220
pH:7/8

It looks like right now my alkalinity is a problem.

When I have gotten new fish I usually stick the whole bag in the tank to allow the water temp to slowly change (usually about 20 minutes or so) and I don't add more than maybe 4 at a time.

What boggles my mind is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of consistency with what causes the loss. I realize that different fish will react different but I guess I underestimated that.

As far as specific species of each fish I have had I will do my best to describe them but I am pretty clueless. I think most of my cichlids have been African and variations from the mbuna? group. I have had a solid yellow, solid orange, and vertical blue striped ones that were about 3 inches long and 1.5 tall with fins. I have a yellow and black horizontal striped one that was about 2.5 inches long and half inch tall. I had a smaller solid blue one that was about 2 inches long and a half inch tall. The other tropicals I have had were dalmation mollies, rainbow fish, a fish that had a reddish belly and long fins that was about 2 inches long and 1.5 inch tall, and a long skinny colorful fish that was probably 3 inches long and .25 inch tall. All the non-mbuna fish were either schoolers or top-swimmers. I am really sorry I cannot remember more details, but I stopped buying new fish awhile ago and have been trying to figure out my problem.

If you have any more questions please let me know, and if you think I my problem is I just don't take enough care of the tank feel free to tell me that too. I've got a lot of money invested in this thing and I really enjoy the fish but I am not the kind of person to just keep buying fish only to have them suffer and die.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

math-only aquarium — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:25:45 GMT

Off hand, I'm guessing either a pH/buffering issue, acclimation issue, or a non-N-compound build-up. Those are the three most common culprits for this sort of thing assuming that the fish were compatable and things were otherwise okay.

MOA

RE: I suck at this fish thing

FattFishy — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:20:20 GMT

Although there is one more thing... a common plecostomus that you see everywhere shouldn't be in a 55 gallon...

RE: I suck at this fish thing

David Lass — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:35:15 GMT

The questions Nikita asked are the ones we need answers to. Without them, it is impossible for us to help you. We're not trying to be difficult -- we just don't have anything to go on yet.

RE: I suck at this fish thing

Nikita — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:42:29 GMT

All right, sounds like you do indeed have a problem! In order to help you, I'm going to ask some basic questions that you need to answer to the best of your ability. Then we can better assess your situation.

What species of cichlids and other fish have you housed? What were their individual sizes, specifically?

What are the values of your pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and hardness? I need these in numbers. Saying they're "good" doesn't work because that's an opinion; only numbers matter with these tests. If you don't have the info or your own test kits, take a cup of water to your local pet store and have them test for that info and give you the results in numbers. If they can't or won't, go to another store.

How often to you change your filter cartridge? How often do you do water changes, and how much do you remove at one time?

How do you acclimate the fish to your tank when you purchase new ones?

Answer those and we'll get a better idea of what's going on, and go from there.

...Oh, and it's "plecostomus." Not percussimist. ;)

I suck at this fish thing

verti89 — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:24:03 GMT

I have a 55 gal. freshwater tank, it was converted from a what I believe was a saltwater tank but I filled and rinses several times and treated it religiously to get rid of the ammonia. I got a filter powerful enough for 75 gal tank, an air pump feeding a air stone and tube, an underground filter connected to a powerhead to get a good cycling of water, and all the typical decorations purchased from my local pet store. I have bought several types of cichlids, and other various tropicals. I also bought a young sucker fish (percussimist or whatever). I know cichlids are aggressive but I think with all the room and things for the fish to 'claim' I avoided any fish on fish violence. But for some reason I cannot keep these things alive. Sometimes they die within a few days of being added, sometimes they last weeks, and the one that died today (my last one) was one of the originals I got almost a year ago. I have never had more than probably 10 fish in there no more than 3 inches, and its usually been more like 5 or 6. I try not to over feed and I monitor the chemicals everytime I clean out the tank and refill it, before I put them back in. It also seems like I have a serious algae problem that no matter what I do just grows amazingly fast. I know I could probably change my water on a more regular basis (usually once ever 5 weeks) but I cannot believe that is the cause of my problems. Does anyone have any advice as I am at the end of my rope and refuse to subject any more innocent fish to my apparently terrible skills. Thanks.