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RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:16:15 GMT

So I'm thinking I should go ahead and start with a 75g tank instead of a 40 breeder. I've changed my fish list a little to reflect the larger tank size, and the fact that I've decided to use my 20L tank as a refugium/sump. Would this list work, and should I stock fewer or could I stock more fish?

75g FOWLR (future reef)
(With 20L refugium/sump)

Ocellaris Clownfish (2)
Court Jester Goby
Coral Beauty or Flame Angelfish
Six-Line Wrasse
Green Mandarin (added after tank is well established)
Fridmani Pseudochromis (Orchid Dottyback) - Tank-Bred
2-4 Blue/Green Chromis

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:05:34 GMT

I'm sure one near me can special order them for an unreasonably high amount, but I would probably just make my own if I went with a 40B and had to purchase a stand separately. It's so much cheaper to build your own stands these days, and they'll probably be a lot sturdier than a store bought one as well.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:51:04 GMT

Conner (10/14/2008)

There are also a lot more used 75g tanks floating around here than 40B's, so I could probably get a used one cheaper than a new 40B. It's something to think about, at any rate. And I think I'd like a 75 better. Bigger is always better, right?:D

The bigger the better I say, plus if your area is anything like mine, you may end up with a stand for a 75 gallon anyhow. (assuming you buy one.:)

Not one store within a reasonable distance from my house sold stands for 40 breeders.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:02:09 GMT

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:55:27 GMT

I'd go with the 75, most lighting that I have seen dont vary much in prices from the 36" to the 48" sizes.

Some of the equipment you would use on the 40B, would likely be rated for a larger tank anyhow, my skimmer is rated to 75 gallons for instance.

At my local salt water store, 36" 6 bulb T5 is $359, where the 48" 6 bulb is $379.

To save money you could do say 45 pounds of live rock, and 35 pounds of base (foundation rock)

For example on Live Aquaria.com

45/lb of Fiji Premium LR- 149.99
35/lb of Fiji Base rock-59.99

40 pounds of live sand-139.99x2
(You can mix in dead sand with live to save money if needed)

Its more for the 70 but not as much as you'd think.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:24:19 GMT

Well, I was looking at tanks at one of my lfs', and was looking at the cost of different tanks. A 75 gallon tank (48x18x20) is not much more expensive than a 40g breeder tank (36x18x18). Obviously getting the larger tank will result in more expenses, such as live sand and rock, and larger lights and skimmer. But would a 75 gallon tank make a better reef tank than a 40 breeder , since it has a larger footprint but is only 2 inches taller?

I'm just trying to think about what I'll want in the future. I know just having a SW tank will be great, but I'm also afraid a 40g won't be "big" enough for me, or allow me to keep as much livestock as I know I'll want to.

Argh, I don't even have the fish tank yet and already I want it to be bigger!

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:22:47 GMT

I would go with the 20 long for the sump, gives more space for equipment and a refuge.

I know most of the people that I know light the refuge at night as they keep macro algae and its said that by keeping the fuge lit at night it helps keep the main tank more stable with the macro algae doing its thing while the main tank sleeps.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:09:04 GMT

I do have both a 20L and a 20H that I could set up as a sump for this tank once I get it. These tanks are both set up as FW tanks right now (the 20L has been established for almost 2 years, the 20H was set up 1.5 weeks ago for some angelfish that spawned).

Which would work better as a sump? I would think the 20L, because I could have a nice refugium set up in it, although the 20H might be easier to get inside of a stand...

I'll have to think over my possibilities for fish. I know its better to keep SW tanks understocked for the size of the tank, but I wasn't sure, with the size of the fish I like, how many exactly I could keep. It makes me want to get a bigger tank to keep more fish! Argh...

I think I like this choice:

1 Ocellaris Clown or Dwarf Angelfish
1 Court Jester Goby
1-2 Firefish
1 Six-line Wrasse
1 Green Mandarin

Is that an acceptable list? I think I'd be more apt to drop one or both of the firefish than either the Goby or Wrasse. And obviously they wouldn't all go in at once. I will seriously consider using one of my other tanks as a sump/refugium.

As for the sump, that's mostly just extra space for more sand bed and live rock to culture more bacteria and natural foods, and extra water volume, right? No mechanical filtration, besides a skimmer? Does it need to be lighted at all?

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Nep2Ns PlumR — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:48:40 GMT

Well Lets see:

Ocellaris Clownfish (2)
Court Jester Goby
Firefish (2)
Six-Line Wrasse
Green Mandarin (added after tank is well established)

I think I like this option best. The fish here are mostly nonagressive feeders. But to be honest, I'd consider a 40g to be a 4-5 fish tank at best. Since the Goby, Mandarin and the firefish will stay pretty small, you might get away with say one more medium to small fish. Maybe one of the dwarf angel fish or one clownfish.

Of course if you add a sump (more total water volume) and an oversized skimmer, you might do a LITTLE more. :)

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:31:37 GMT

That was some interesting reading. I'll have to look through some more of his stuff later.

So, going back to my stocking options, are these lists ok as is, will those tanks be under or over stocked with the ones listed for each option? Here's the updated list, not including invertebrates:

40g Breeder
Saltwater FOWLR Tank option #1 (reef safe)

Ocellaris Clownfish (2)
Court Jester Goby
Firefish (2)
Six-Line Wrasse
Green Mandarin (added after tank is well established)

Saltwater FOWLR Tank option #2 (reef safe)

Ocellaris Clownfish (2)
Coral Beauty or Flame Angelfish (caution with reef)
Cardinalfish (1-3)
Fridmani Pseudochromis (Orchid Dottyback)- Tank-Bred
Green Mandarin (added after tank is well established)

Saltwater FOWLR Tank option #3

Ocellaris Clownfish
Coral Beauty or Flame Angelfish (caution with reef)
Flame Hawkfish (not reef safe)
Cardinalfish (1-3)
Green Mandarin (added after tank is well established)

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Nep2Ns PlumR — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:38:56 GMT

I opt for the DSB -vs- the plenum myself. I've done both and never saw an advantage to the plenum so why go to the extra effort and expense. But bring up this subject around a group of old reefers and you'll definately start a heated debate. If you're interested in doing some good reading on the subject, Google Dr Ronald Shimek (in particular, "Feeding begets food"). A great source of imformation.

DSBs are stirred but by the animals that inhabit it. That's what makes a good "live" bed so important. You should never stir or vacuum a DSB. You'd need 4" of a medium grade or even "sugar fine" or "oolitic" aragonite sand. The oolitic (very fine) does a great job and looks really good but will move around with storng current.

As far as questions go, ask on. That's what the forum's here for and I do enjoy sharing what I've learned over the years. All questions are good questions. The goal is to produce a high quallity, low maintenance system. If I can help folks do that, then that's far too cool!!!!:)

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

iceiscool — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:37:25 GMT

Hi all! I'm a newbie myself, this is a nice forum for starters. Let me share a link I found, full of useful information and goodies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znTmyVeKunM

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:37:29 GMT

Sweet, thanks for clearing that stuff up. I will definitely look into doing a deep sand bed in my tank. I would really like it to be as close to a fully enclosed ecosystem as possible (at least as is possible in a 40g fish tank).

With deep sand beds, do you mostly rely on having snails to keep it stirred up/aerated, or do you need to occasionally stir it manually, or do you not want it to be aerated much at all? Also, what exactly would constitute a deep sand bed in a 40 breeder? 2-3 inches, or more like 4 inches?

Sorry if I'm asking any dumb questions, I just like to cover all my bases, and want to know as much as possible before I get started.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Nep2Ns PlumR — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:12:42 GMT

Let me kinda go back and answer one of Conner's questions first (and you may appreciate this too jsmith11618). As a reef tank, the 40g breeder is one of best IMO. Very good ratio of surface area to volume so gas exchange through out the tank is easily accomplished. Relatively shallow so lighting doesn't have to be too intense to provide for aminals at the bottom of the tank.

That leads in to the answer to your question jsmith11618. Rule of thumb for most corals is at least 4 watts per gallon. That number can be highly relative depending on the shape of the tank. A tall narrow tank would require more wattage/intensity to provide for animals at the bottom than a wide short tank. For a 40g breeder the rule applies very well. Since 36" T5s put out 39 watts per lamp, 4 lamps would allow you to keep most corals. Six lamps would probably be enough to keep even Tridacnid clams and even some SPS corals (if located midway the tank and up). Maybe not Acropora but corals such as Seriatopora, Montipora and Pocillapora. So for your situation Conner, if you purchased a 2 lamp fixture now, you coud just add another 2 or 4 lamp fixture later and be in great shape for a reef tank! :)

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 05:24:54 GMT

Nep2Ns PlumR-

How many bulbs would you say to have on a reef? Mine is a 40 breeder, and I'll use T5 HO once I start the transfer to reef, I am just not sure which bulb set up to go with.

I wont be keeping any difficult or very high light corals to start with.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Nep2Ns PlumR — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:36:34 GMT

The 3 most important pieces of equipment you'll purchase are:

Skimmer-For mechanical filtration

Return pump or powerheads-To keep detritus suspended in the water column so the skimmer can remove it and to provide good gas exchange.

Lighting-Not so important for a FOWLR (the 2 bulb strip will do fine for that) but extremely important for a reef.

The live rock will provide a portion of your biological filtration, but the sand is just as important if not more so. Look into "Deep sand beds" (DSB) and "Plenums" (Dr. Jean Jaubert/Monaco Aquarium). These are 2 schools of thought as to using your substrate as part of your filtration. This'll open up a real can of worms, or in our case "pods". :D

As for the Pseudochromis (Dottybacks), these guys are probably the most aggressive group of fishes for their size out there. Hard to say how well one would fit in to your community. Take a look at the Orchid Dottyback. A beautiful fish, probably the least aggressive of the genus and can be purchased as captive bread, which to me is a great plus!! :)

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:07:44 GMT

Conner (10/8/2008)

So I guess if I get some good live rock, it's going to basically come with some coral's already on it, right? So I'll basically have a reef tank started without trying. If that's the case, would the hawkfish basically just pick all of the little coral's (if there were any) off before they got established?Also, are the Coral Beauty and Flame Angelfish considered reef safe? I read on liveaquaria.com that they can be prone to nipping on soft and stony corals. Anyone have experience with these fish?

I have never kept Angels, but both of those angels are listed by my live stock supplier as possibly reef safe with caution.

Your likely to get some sort of coral on your life rock, I have a few that survived the process.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:44:16 GMT

So I guess if I get some good live rock, it's going to basically come with some coral's already on it, right? So I'll basically have a reef tank started without trying. If that's the case, would the hawkfish basically just pick all of the little coral's (if there were any) off before they got established?

Also, are the Coral Beauty and Flame Angelfish considered reef safe? I read on liveaquaria.com that they can be prone to nipping on soft and stony corals. Anyone have experience with these fish?

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:22:25 GMT

So I really don't even need a filter besides the skimmer, at least until I need the sump/refugium for copapod production? I know the live rock is pretty much all the biological filtration you need, powerheads add water flow, and the skimmer does particulate, I guess I just thought you had to have another kind of filter. Goes to show how much I know about SW!

I'd forget about the canister all together, even without a sump. It hasn't been up and running for long, but my 40 gallon only has a skimmer and power heads and the live rock right now, and all my parameters are perfect and everything is doing well so far, I have a huge population of pods now, and the corals that came in with the rock are looking good. I did have a very small cycle and my nitrates went to 20 but now they are close to 0.

I'm going to have to really look at the skimmers, since it looks like it could end up being the most expensive piece of equipment I buy

Its one of the more exspensive items, but its also one of the most important, you see what the muck looks like when I clean it, amazing what a good skimmer can pull from the water.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:09:02 GMT

Would a Blue Flavivertex Pseudochromis (Sunrise Dottyback) work in any of these tanks? Perhaps in place of the Chromis if I decide not to get them.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:48:19 GMT

So is it easy/does it make sense to convert something as small as a 40g or 55g to a reef tank later on? I know literally nothing about coral's yet, so I don't know if there's anything that stays small and would look nice in a tank that small or not. Will it make much difference in the tank to reduce the volume from 55 to 40 gallons (other than maybe stocking fewer fish)?

I really appreciate the advice. This is going to be a long term project, so thanks for helping me get things figured out ahead of time.

I didn't realize that T-5's would be better for a SW tank than PC's. Is the quality of light better for the wattage, as well as the lights lasting longer?

I will probably rethink the chromis. I really like how they look, but I think I would like to keep a school of them. I saw a video of a school of about 20 of them on youtube, and it was amazing!

I will look into getting 2 c/b clowns, as several of my petstores carry them.

I also planned on letting the tank get pretty established before adding the Mandarin. They're just too beautiful to resist putting one in eventually though.

I really like the Hawkfish, and this one may help decide if this will be a FOWLR tank permanently, or if I leave it out and decide to go reef eventually.

So I really don't even need a filter besides the skimmer, at least until I need the sump/refugium for copapod production? I know the live rock is pretty much all the biological filtration you need, powerheads add water flow, and the skimmer does particulate, I guess I just thought you had to have another kind of filter. Goes to show how much I know about SW!

I'm going to have to really look at the skimmers, since it looks like it could end up being the most expensive piece of equipment I buy. As for the lights, with having just a FOWLR tank, do I need anything more than just a double bulb T5 strip light? I know I'd have to upgrade if I converted to a reef in the future, but right now cost is pretty important. If I just had money to blow, I'd be doing a 250g reef with all the fixin's.

Thanks!

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:49:10 GMT

However I'm not real thrilled about Aqua C's in sump skimmers.

That is good to know. At some point in the near future I am going to add a sump, just need to build a hiding spot for it, since my stand wont accomodate one.

I have the 40 breeder, and I am so glad I got it over the 40 regular, so much easier to work with.

I did make the mistake of PC's and haven't been too happy with them or the cost of the replacements. I am switching to T5's in the next few months after being happy with them on my FW tank.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Nep2Ns PlumR — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:24:44 GMT

Hey Conner,

My 2 cents.

A tank with a greater surface area makes a better reef if you plan to convert later. Try a 40g breeder. 36 x 18 x 18. Easier to aquascape too.

Fish:

All are good fish, just a few notes.

Bluegreen chromis do eventually get pretty big. For the size tank you're looking at, 2 would be plenty.

Hawkfish are a favorite of mine but have a bad habbit of liking to sit on corals. Not so good for a reef.

Mandarins have to have a good source of live food to survive. You'll need to let the system mature for 9 - 12 months before you add one. This way there's a good population of copepods, amphipods, mysis ect. for it to feed on.

Cleanup crew:

Turbograzers get very large (up to 3" across). They're great for a FOWLR but are bulldozers in a reef. I like astrea or trochus better. Still good grazers but not near as large.

I personally don't use hermit crabs. Since they don't grow their own shells they have to find a new one when they outgrow their old one. They won't hesitate to eat a snail to get its shell. They're also bad about crawling over corals.

Stay away from green serpent stars. They've been known to eat small fish.

Emerald crabs are a great addition. They'll eat algaes other animals won't touch and are able to get at algae in nooks and crannies in the rock.

Filtration/Equipment:

Liverock is a must.

I feel some good live sand is too (not so called live sand that's really just bacteria infused). Live sand will harbor critters that won't be in the liverock. Gives you better biodiversity which goes a long way towards keeping your system stable.

If you're thinking about converting to a reef later, I'd stay away from the canister filter. Great for getting rid of ammonia but in turn produces large quantities of nitrate. Not so bad for fish in moderation, not so good for corals. I'd opt for the sump. A little more money up front but will save you in the long run. Also gives you a place to hide you skimmer and heater etc. Gives you more flexibility.

I agree with jsmith11618 about the Remora. It's a great HOB for the money. However I'm not real thrilled about Aqua C's in sump skimmers. I run a Aqua C EV-400. It produces great skimmate but is a real hassle to clean. If I had it to do over again I'd choose something else. I don't care for the Coralife or the Turbofloater skimmers. The ASM skimmers are very good for the money. If you can invest a little more, Euro Reef makes a great skimmer. My choice would be one of the newer becket skimmers. They are pretty expensive but this is an important piece of equipment and you do pretty much get what you pay for. Just for fun check out Deltec and Bubble King skimmers, the skimmers of millionaires!!!!:w00t:

For lighting I'd go for the T5s instead of the PCs. Better lamp life and coloration. :)

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:31:12 GMT

The clown fish species you chose is a good one, they are some of the more peaceful ones and you should be able to find some quality captive bred ones, they are one of the most readily bred marine fish, so wild caught should be a last resort.

If you get 2 clowns try to get one smaller and one larger to help ensure you will end up with a pair, the larger one will usually go female and smaller one stay male.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:26:52 GMT

Aqua C makes in sump models too and i'd imagine they are just as good as the HOB they make.

Even without a sump, the canister is still not needed. As long as you have 1.5 lbs of live rock, a good skimmer and the power heads you will be good to go.

The rock will provide biological filtration, the skimmer will remove particles from the water, and the Korallias will ensure water flows over the rock.

On my 40 (building a sump currently) I have 2 korallia 1, protein skimmer, and 80 pounds of live rock and the tank is thriving. The canister wont will add anything to the system.

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:13:14 GMT

I was thinking about a sump with refugium, but I thought it would just be easier to use a canister filter. I'll keep that other skimmer in mind, though if I go with a sump, would the coralife skimmer be better?

I figured the live rock would make the sand live soon enough.

I may rethink the Chromis, since I've read they need to be in larger groups to really get along, and I don't know if a 55g would provide enough space for a school plus other fish?

RE: Idea's for first saltwater tank.

jsmith11618 — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:42:03 GMT

Look into the Remora Aqua C protein skimmers, I have one on my 40 and its awesome, and takes way less room then the coralife, the coral life was just too dang big to use a HOB, but would be good for in sump.

With the proper amount of live rock and protein skimmer, you don't really need the canister and in the long run would cause some issues with nitrates.

The korallia's are great, I have 2 on my 40 gallon, but on a 55 gallon, I would go up to the next model to get more flow.

Might even want to look into building a small fuge into the system, it will provide a place for macro algae, pods to live, as well a place for your heater, skimmer etc, instead of it being in the tank.

I always just go with dead sand, its cheaper and the live rock quickly turns it into live sand. Nothing wrong with live sand, just too $$ for me.

Idea's for first saltwater tank.

Conner — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:17:12 GMT

I'm thinking about starting a FOWLR tank sometime in the near future. I'm not sure when, it will depend on available funds. Here are a couple of stocking idea's, and a list of equipment I think I'll need. Please dissect and criticize as much as you will. I want to make sure that if I try this, I am as prepared as I possibly can be to do this successfully.

I am thinking of getting a tank between 30 and 55 gallons, and leaning more towards the 55g tank. I also think I might like to eventually convert this tank to a reef setup, so keeping reef-friendly fish would be good to start with, although that isn't necessary. I can be happy with FOWLR only fish (since I especially like the Coral Beauty Angelfish).

Here goes:

Saltwater FOWLR Tank Option #1
Ocellaris Clownfish
Court Jester Goby
Green Mandarin
Firefish (2)
Six-Line Wrasse

Saltwater FOWLR Tank Option #2
Ocellaris Clownfish
Coral Beauty or Flame Angelfish
Green Mandarin
Blue/Green Chromis (2-4)

Saltwater FOWLR Tank Option #3
Ocellaris Clownfish
Coral Beauty or Flame Angelfish
Flame Hawkfish
Green Mandarin
Cardinalfish (1-3)

Cleanup crew:
Turbo snails
Red or Blue tip Dwarf Hermit Crabs
Banded Coral Shrimp
Brittle Stars
Nassarius Snails
Emerald Crabs?

Live Rock
Part Live Sand, part regular depending on cost?
Salt mix
Eheim Ecco Comfort Canister Filter- 2236
Coralife Super Skimmer-Needle Wheel-65 Gallon
Sybon Refractometer
Hydor Theo Submersible Heater-300 Watt
2 x Hydor Koralia 1 - 400GPH
Power Compact Light