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RE: Bettas In Pond

princessotfu — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:00:34 GMT

It's not that keeping the two together WILL introduce disease to one or the other, it's that keeping the two together will up the chances of it. The fact that none of yours has fallen ill is great, but still yours have a better chance of doing so than most, if something went wrong in your tank.

RE: Bettas In Pond

crazysqurrel06 — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:01:54 GMT

my fish tank actually heats itself - i have no heater. During the day it gets to about 80 degrees, and at night, about 76. Since I have no heater, theres nothing i can do about that unless I leave the light off all day, then it stays in the 70s.

and never in the 6 years I've been keeping goldfish, has one ever gotten a disease from a betta, or vise vera. so i'm kinda unsure about that.

RE: Bettas In Pond

David Lass — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:10:18 GMT

Thanks for the explanation, Nikita. In terms of immunology, one of the problems with some fish, especially from the Far East, is that they are raised in almost sterile conditions, including UV. The fish never are "challenged" and their immune system is not well developed. This is especialy a problem with discus from the Far East.

Thanks again.

RE: Bettas In Pond

math-only aquarium — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:43:46 GMT

Hmm...the empirical proof works just fine for me: fish die, evidently something was wrong, don't do it again. Yeah, definitely oversimplistic.

RE: Bettas In Pond

Nikita — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:40:20 GMT

Hmm...well actually, I have to think a bit as to where I learned this.

The reason it's inadvisable to add a wholesale shipment of fish to an already-established batch is immunology 101. Put very simply, the first time we, or a fish, are exposed to a pathogen, our immune system takes too long to produce antibodies to the pathogen and we get sick. From that point on, however, we will possess fast-acting antibodies that react quickly to an invasion by that same pathogen. Thus, when we come down with the chicken pox as children (well I did, hooray for modern vaccines), it's rare for us to get the disease again. And as a result, you described it well when you stated that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

So adding a new wholesale fish shipment to an established group would expose both stocks of fish to illnesses that neither one have experience immunity to. If there were just a few fish put together - like in a home aquarium setting - the fish's immune systems have time to cope; they face the invasion with little to no side effects and their systems are primed with memory cells ready for the next time they meet that germ. But adding so many fish together, like in a pet store, would result in all the fish being exposed to massive amounts of pathogen, which they might not be able to fight off.

I don't think that I have ever seen this type of immunology explained in an aquaculture reference book. This is basically applied science, and of a somewhat diminished technical nature. I could explain it more thoroughly, but at the same time there will be differences in what occurs in other biological systems versus those of fish.

A component of my knowledge comes from extensive research of agricultural techniques - that's why I vaguely mentioned farming in the previous post. Agriculture relies on many of the same principles as aquaculture when it comes to resource management and also disease transmission.

In addition, I'm very well-studied in human and animal disease transmission and immunology, short of pursuing a degree in the field. In my case this knowledge comes from necessity; my boyfriend has a rare genetic disease that renders him extremely immunocompromised. Ignorance on the subject could put his life in serious danger, so I have made every effort to be well-informed.

RE: Bettas In Pond

David Lass — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:28:58 GMT

Very interesting post, Nikita. If you don't mind, where did you learn that, as I've never heard it explained that way.

It is observable that when an illness, say ich, strikes a tank there can often be some species of fishes that are not at all affected. I have always just chalked it up to different fish having different immune systems, and to having been "challenged" before and having some immunity because of that -- the old "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I have also learned, through years of handling fish on the wholesale level, that it is very dangerous to add a new batch of fish to a tank that already has fish in it. This is why most wholesalers always introduce new fish into a tank that does not have fish in it.

Your explanation is very interesting -- and it definitely makes sense.

RE: Bettas In Pond

Nikita — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:00:07 GMT

Aw shucks. :) Thanks! I try.

RE: Bettas In Pond

FattFishy — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:57:58 GMT

Nikita, that was one brilliantly written explanation! It really explained to me why tropical and coldwater fish should never be kept together.

RE: Bettas In Pond

princessotfu — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:48:17 GMT

That was admirably explained, Nikita, and very correct.

I have heard this theory often, and when I do hear it, it most often takes the form of, "the slimecoats are different and will infect each other." I have often wondered if someone really started putting that version around awhile back, believing it to be true, or if the real explanation just got mutated, like a game of telephone online. So often, information about these two fish, bettas and goldfish, does exactly that, gets mutated until it is no longer even true. :(

RE: Bettas In Pond

Nikita — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:05:13 GMT

Princessotfu has it right. We separate those types of fish for the same reason farmers don't keep cows and horses in the same pastures, for example. It's all about transmission of pathogens. Biologically, a pathogen is any substance that causes a disease. This includes bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites (it's easier for me to say that and generalize than specify every time). Every species of animal contains various pathogens living on and in its system that it is accustomed to.

For example, pigs harbor high amounts of Escherichia coli bacteria in their digestive tracts (we do too). This bacteria doesn't bother the pigs but will infect other animals exposed to their waste - remember over the past year when there was an E. coli outbreak in spinach? This outbreak was caused by humans ingesting spinach plants contaminated with bacteria-laden waste from a pig farm. This is a prime example of inter-species cross-contamination.

Fish aren't pigs (though I'm sure some of us who spend too much money on fish food could argue ;) ). But the premise is the same; just using that for an easy example.

Let's translate this into fishspeak. Say that a goldfish has a species of bacteria living on its skin, within its slime coat. This bacteria feeds off organic particles in the slime coat, but goldfish are adapted to this bacteria and aren't harmed by it, just like we harbor bacteria in our bodies that don't hurt us.

Now say that you put a betta in a goldfish tank. This is where the problems will start. For one, the temperature can't be right for both fish. It'll either be too high for the goldfish or too low for the betta. In our example, the betta's in the goldfish tank so the temperature is at least six degrees too low for the betta. Bam. Stressed betta fish.

Suddenly, the bacteria on the skin of the goldfish (that are also in the water, just from contact) have a whole new fish to play with. They're thrilled and begin to multiply like crazy as they take in nutrients from their new host. But the betta isn't nearly as thrilled. He is not used to the bacteria that live on goldfish, because in the wild he would never even meet a goldfish. And suddenly the bacteria that are benign on your ryukins or comets are virulent on your betta.

See how this works? The cross-contamination can happen over a variety of media - skin, digestive wastes, etc, and can occur in any species of fish not found in each other's proximity in the wild. It's just more common with goldfish vs tropicals because their differing temperature requirements make it certain that at least one of the two species will be stressed already due to temperature, and thus more susceptible to disease.

RE: Bettas In Pond

princessotfu — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 16:05:14 GMT

The theory goes that coldwater fish and tropical fish have very different slime coats, and that when you mix the two, they can actually infect each other with things they wouldn't come down with if they were separated.

There are differing versions, where the slime coat itself is what infects the fish. Someone told me once, and I believe this more readily, that it's simply the stress on one or the other, living in an unnatural temperature that makes them sick where they wouldn't otherwise be.

RE: Bettas In Pond

David Lass — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:06:03 GMT

I agree -- the different temperature preferences of bettas (warm) and goldfish (cold) make them incompatible.

Can anyone elaborate on the slime coat theory -- it's not familiar to me. Thanks.

RE: Bettas In Pond

princessotfu — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:51:20 GMT

yeah, at 2.5", nothing should really be eating the goldies. The problem is that bettas require constant temperatures up in the 78-84ish range, which is too high for a goldfish to be constantly dealing with. Your pond water might actually reach that temp in the summer months, but it's usually temporary, I would think.

RE: Bettas In Pond

DazzleDiscus — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:42:25 GMT

I've never heard much about the slimecoat theories. It sounds sortof familiar, but then again not really. So I take it that it would be better for the fish if I separated the bettas from the goldfish, even for the summer months? The goldfish are still pretty small- the biggest being 2.5 inches, excluding tail- so I wasn't worried about the other fish being eaten by them. At least not yet.

RE: Bettas In Pond

princessotfu — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 09:30:39 GMT

there are theories on the slime coat thing. I have my own theory, which is that the slime coat itself has nothing to do with it. Rather, there are diseases that prefer coldwater and diseases that prefer tropical water. Goldfish aren't normally exposed to diseases that prefer tropical water, and vice versa for the bettas.

Either way, the point is that bettas and goldfish are not appropriate housemates, whether in a pond or in a tank.

RE: Bettas In Pond

lilcherna — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 21:56:52 GMT

bettas and goldfish should not be kept together because their requirements are different and their slime coats are different, but someone who knows more about the slime coats should explain that.

i have kept bettas in a 60 gallon pond with only plants for filteration, at the time. i first put the female in to be accostumed to the pond then the male about a week later. they did spawn but the eggs were either infertile or he was too distracted by the female to tend to them because when i found them they were white. i would love to try this again and its really neat if you want to try it. but be careful of what might be living in your pond if its already established. watch out for water bugs and any guppies that might tear your bettas fins apart.

RE: Bettas In Pond

DazzleDiscus — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:05:06 GMT

It sortof depends on the depth of the pond that determines how stable the water temperatures are. I have a 500gal garden pond loaded with plants that gets about 6 hours of sun, the rest mostly dappled shade. The deepest part of the pond is 3ft with that being about 5ft long.

Fish: 2 ryukin (goldfish), 1 fantail goldfish, some type of top minnow from the local river, 5 whitecloud mountain minnows, a few female yellow guppies, 3 turquoise betta splendens (1male/2female).

The bettas have been in there for about a month - month 1/2. They haven't made bubblenests- the females are laiden, but the male gets chased away... They eat food amonst the minnows and goldfish. They've done fantastic so far. I wouldn't suggest them for a pond that doesn't have a heater if you want them in there over winter. I think I'm going to leave one female in the pond with a heater this winter to see if she will survive it. There's no information on the internet (that I've found) about if a betta will survive it, so I guess I'll be experimenting.

I'd suggest you try it (HINT: the short-finned varieties do much better than the fancier strains. My two females are round tailed and the male is a short crowntail.) But you will have to bring them back inside for the winter unless you don't have frosts... I'm still experimenting with what will survive. I live between zone 6 and 7.

I have a 2 1/2 year old cat named Ricky, but he doesn't bother the fish too much. They just go under the lily leaves or just swim down deeper. He's never actually tried to put his paws in the water. He does like to chase the dozen bullfrogs that have moved in... A dog that likes water such as a lab or something would be hard to keep out of the pond area without a fence or something. They would eat the fish- especially koi if you have any. We have a bunch of racoons and possums around here... but they go for my chickens. I've never seen signs of them around the pond or vegie gardens.

There have been alot of articles written online about having big plastic tubs outside as holding tanks for breeding fish during the spring/summer/fall months. You just have to make sure that they are either brought inside or given away to someone else. I'm always on the lookout for fish that will look great when you look at them from above. Yellow finned guppies are great for that too- I breed them, so the females I won't breed usually go in the pond. Then in the fall I'll give them to the petstore (call them first though to make sure that they will take them!).

My pond is elevated a bit from the rest of the gardens, so no mulch or soil ever gets in it. I don't fertilize the gardens except with composted cow manure in the fall. Be sure not to use chemical fertizers around the pond area as this can cause a headache of algae, as well as other problems.

Mine have lived just fine. I take them out to look at them every week or so, and to tell you the truth, the oldest female (which I've had a year) looks so much better than when I kept her inside. She is plump with eggs and her colors have brightened considerably. I think it has to do with the sunlight and probably all those young tadpoles she's been eating. The mosquito population is extremely low, a thing I am well pleased about.

Hope this helps... and I hope I'm not starting a quarrel here!

RE: Bettas In Pond

princessotfu — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:52:20 GMT

You could keep a betta in a pond, but the main, and big issue, is going to be temperature control. I've seen indoor ponds that were kept at stable, tropical temperatures, and bettas lived in them just fine. These were mostly small ponds, on the scale of 20-50g. Outdoor ponds will be very much more difficult to keep at the tropical temps necessary, most especially during winter.

RE: Bettas In Pond

Nikita — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:39:41 GMT

They make indoor ponds and you could keep a betta in one of those, theoretically. Of course, you couldn't mix it with typical pond fish like koi or goldfish.

The problem with an outdoor pond is that it's harder to control the conditions there. Ponds are larger than most aquariums, true, so there's more leeway in the water conditions. Larger bodies of water change their chemistry more slowly than small bodies of water, which is why it's really easier to maintain a bigger aquarium than a smaller one. You have to deal with fewer fluctuations.

But there will always be changes in either water chemistry or temperature, and bettas are delicate fish. A drop in the outdoor temperature one night might well result in a dead betta in the morning. Or the pond could be polluted some way and stress the betta to the point of sickness or death. And, it's easier for a predator like a bird to kill a smaller fish like a betta than a large, robust goldfish or koi.

See where I'm going with this? Bettas do better in aquaria because it's easier to control their living conditions and monitor their health. It's hard to see when a fish as small as a betta is having trouble, especially in a large pond. I have read in older (think 1970s) books about breeding bettas and raising the fry in ponds, but with today's technology, it's my opinion that bettas should be indoor only fish.

Bettas In Pond

crazysqurrel06 — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:20:44 GMT

I'm not thinking of putting a Betta in a pond, but I want to know if you could. Would they survive, or even live very long?