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RE: New 10 Gallon

Nicolas — Sun, 07 Oct 2007 18:37:34 GMT

Hi guys. I'm sorry I couldn't log in the last couple of days. I have been taking a lot of tests. I was using 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. However, I have started to wean this amount down to a more normal proportion.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Lumberjack — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 15:08:43 GMT

Perhaps the bred mollies should be labled Florida or where ever they were hybridised at....

There is one other reason to salt your mollies .... anchovies!

RE: New 10 Gallon

ILuvMyGoldBarb — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:09:15 GMT

As the article I quoted earlier states, the mollies we have today in aquariums are so hybridized they barely even resemble their wild ancestors. The cross breeding of the species has been so extensive that it is impossible to state one location as their origin. Mollies are found from the Southern States all the way down to the Yucatan. Poecilia velifera is a Yucatan native however, P. latipinna is found all the way up to the southern states and P mexicana is found from Rio San Juan, Mexico all the way down to Colombia, ancd finally, P sphenops is found from Mexico down to the northern parts of South America. To the untrained eye, P velifera and P. latipinna look virtually identical and thus have been interbred. P mexicana and P. sphenops also are quite similar in their body shape and have been interbred. The mixing of all these wild species has worked to produce the mollies we have today. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if a person was to go looking in the wild for a Black Molly, they are likely to be quite disappointed. So, to assign a species name to any of the Mollies commonly found in stores today would be quite inaccurate and therefore quite impossible to assign them an origin. Those nice fancy mollies do have an origin but it is almost always going to be either a farm or a tank somewhere.

RE: New 10 Gallon

lilcherna — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:21:55 GMT

this sounds a bit like my friends tank. she has a ten gallon and plans to have a female betta 2 mollies (black and dal.) some male endlers and a cory. well if you plan on weening the mollies off the salt then whent there is absolutly no salt you could add the betta and whatever else you want.

i have also herd that mollies like salt in their water but i have never done that because adding salt confuses me, marine salt, table salt, freshwater salt, brackish salt, i dunno if there is such a thing but its all salt to me. and i doubt its table salt but just an example. so since i have a community tank anyway i dont add salt for my mollies and never had, ive raised these guys from babies and i dunno what the petstore had these lil freebies in before but i use conditioned tap water.

im pretty sure that todays aquarium mollies originate from the yucatan penninsula were the sailfins also came from. http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Poecilia_velifera.html this website says the natives get about 6-6.5 inches so obviously the mollies we have are hybrids, that were made smaller. maybe if i gave my 3 mollies a 100 gallon grow out tank they might reach about 4 inches. maybe.

this is from wikipedia on sailfins

Sailfin mollies are most commonly observed in the shallow surface waters along the edges of marshes, lowland streams, ponds, swamps, estuaries and even ephemeral water bodies such as roadside ditches. Small to large aggregations of the species are most commonly found under floating vegetation or near structures in the water, minimizing their chances of being observed by potential predators.
The sailfin molly is a tolerant species. By exploiting the thin film of oxygen rich surface water with their upturned mouths, sailfin mollies are able to survive oxygen depleted habitats. A euryhaline species, the sailfin molly may be found in a variety of saline environments tolerating salinities as high as 87 ppt ^[5] and will breed in brackish waters.
Adults thrive best in isolated pools or organically enriched waterways where few other fish occur (Minckley 1973).

RE: New 10 Gallon

ILuvMyGoldBarb — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 03:19:37 GMT

Lumberjack, the increased slime productions of a fish is in response to an irritant in the water. The increase in a Molly's slime is simply due to the fact that you are adding something more to the water that irritates the fish when adding salt. This is part of the adaptability of the mollies though, they can build that thicker slime coat to handle that extra irritant. Because their slime coats are thicker they are more resistant to the diseases in the water. This is the whole reason (an logic) behind the salt debate. If you do the proper water changes then straight fresh water shouldn't have the bacterial and parasitic problems. Thus the statement was made above implying that the addition of salt to a Molly tank simply allows the keeper to get away with poor husbandry practices.It boils down to this, adding salt to the water simply gives the mollies a fighting chance in conditions that are not as clean as they should be for them.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Lumberjack — Fri, 05 Oct 2007 15:08:29 GMT

Nitrite aside, salt also tends to increase slime production Brackish water can also prevent certain types of bacteria from growing. I am told mollies will adapt to almost any amount of salt provided the change is done slowly and is kept stable.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Hailey — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:01:13 GMT

Wow...I can't believe mollies need that many large water changes. That really doesn't make them the hardy "beginner" fish most people make them out to be. Given that most people will never work that hard for a common fish like a livebearer (nothing against livebearers...it's just that they're not discus or anything), I'm going to stick to the salt recommendations. If it will help the molly survive, and it won't hurt it, it's definitely worth it to me.

RE: New 10 Gallon

fishwhisperer — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 16:19:32 GMT

ahem...if I could just interject this, Nicolas is keeping his Mollies in semibrackish conditions because he was instructed to by his LFS when he first set up his tank. As I recall, it was at a rate of 1 Tbsp salt/10 gal. Also, as I recall, he made sure they were being kept this way by double checking with the store after he (his Mollies) were faced with some rather unpleasant health issues when he first brought them home. If memory serves, he was going to wean them off the salt slowly, once there were in good health. ;)

RE: New 10 Gallon

ILuvMyGoldBarb — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:56:48 GMT

princessotfu (10/4/2007)

No one recommends keeping goldfish or guppies in brackish conditions.

I meant to address this one. I have actually run into those who do recommend brackish conditions for those fish. :angry:

RE: New 10 Gallon

princessotfu — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:29:51 GMT

You do make a good argument. And I can believe from those sources that because mollies are so hybridized, it's difficult to make generalizations about their natural habitat. (paraphrasing)
I'm still having an issue with the logic though. The only thing salt can do is protect against nitrite poisoning. It does nothing for nitrate or ammonia. Not every problem stemming from poor water quality has to do with nitrite, so you would still see a healthy percentage dying even in brackish conditions.

My guess would be, from the hybridization comments, and the broad ranges of natural habitat, that some mollies will do better in brackish conditions and some won't, depending on their genetics, which you can't really determine just from looking at them. This would explain the range in experiences with salt. Just theorizing here.

*I don't claim to know much about mollies, as I keep almost exclusively goldfish, the only exception being bettas. So take my posts for what they're worth. The logic just isn't meshing with me is all.*

RE: New 10 Gallon

ILuvMyGoldBarb — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:09:04 GMT

Argo, I used to work PT at Petsmart and there are a lot of things that PetSmart recommends that I take issue with. Having worked there, the only fish that we had in our mix that were brackish (and eventually full SW) were the Columbian Silver-tipped sharks and the Dragon Gobies.

By improper WC regime for mollies, I talking about the recommended 50% every other day that is also recommended for Discus.

Hailey, you made the comment that the mollies do better with the Marine salt. This is a true statement only if people do not keep them in discus like water conditions. I'm not saying that people shouldn't keep Mollies in brackish water. If people are not willing to do the necessary water changes then they should add the salt, it's better for the health of the fish. Unfortunately the blanket statements do not apply to Mollies because of their extreme adaptability.

Let me quote Ted Coletti, Director of the American Livebearers Assoc. "In nature, mollies cover habitats ranging from inland mud swamps to coastal lagoons. this makes it erroneous to make any generalizations about the "natural habitat" or "water conditions" of any petshop or fancy Molly. Petshop or fancy mollies have been extensively hybridized over the past 80 years with species form a variety of habitats...
...Fancy molly pioneer and ALA Founder Dr. Joanne Norton addressed the molly-salt debate thisway: 'If water changes are large enough and frequent enough, and if all the water is well aerated and circulated, livebearers (all the species I have kept) do fine without salt added to the water. If these conditions are not met, or if the fish are too crowded, then troubles appear. Thus salt enables you to continue one or more poor tank management practices that are still harmful even though the fish may survive them in the presence of salt...'" - Ted coletti: Livebearers Unlimited, Tropical Fish Hobbyist: Auguest 2007

I'd say those are 2 rather reputable sources for the info. If you want to read the whole article it is in the August issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist.

RE: New 10 Gallon

ArgoForg — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:15:26 GMT

Really? That's sort of odd, because my local Petsmart lists aquarium salt among the requirements for Mollies, Platies and Guppies. I only know this because I've followed that slavishly for my little 3 gallon tank, and that requirement kept them from being put in my 10 gallon with my Otos...

Even so, I never thought of any of those as brackish fish, but it was my understanding that among freshwater fish, livebearers particularly benefitted from water treated with aquarium salt.

(Sorry. Off-topic.)

RE: New 10 Gallon

princessotfu — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:57:15 GMT

Fair enough, I can believe that. :)

Still though, it doesn't follow that that's why salt is recommended for mollies, otherwise the same logic would apply to the other fish on the list as well. No one recommends keeping goldfish or guppies in brackish conditions.
Either way, I'm just being argumentative. Hailey's response is more appropriate.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Hailey — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:05:11 GMT

I have to agree with that statement (about molly water change regimes). Just spitballing here, but it seems to me that mollies, guppies, and platies rank pretty high on the most abused fish list with bettas and goldfish. They're among the most commonly recommended "beginner fish," and are often kept pretty improperly. They are often used as "throw away'" fish for cycling too. And they grow bigger than many people realize (4-6 inches) and they tend to be crammed into small tanks. It's sad, but many people just don't seem to value them very highly.

RE: New 10 Gallon

princessotfu — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:26:53 GMT

I do have to wonder what your basis is for saying that "the necessary water change regime for them is not usually followed." (referring to the care of Mollies)

RE: New 10 Gallon

Hailey — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 07:57:26 GMT

Many reputable sources report that mollies prefer salt (though many do not as well), and I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence that they do better in tanks with marine salt, most of it from helping people here over the years. They seem to suffer less often from internal parasites and "shimmying", which I have seen even in mollies that live in well cared for freshwater tanks with perfect parameters. They come from estuary areas, do they not? So in the wild they do encounter salt regularly, and even if that doesn't necessarily make them brackish, if it benefits their health, why not use it?

RE: New 10 Gallon

ILuvMyGoldBarb — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:01:52 GMT

Ok, so I'll rock the boat. Why are you even adding salt to your tank anyway? Contrary to the very popular belief, Mollies are not brackish fish. Even the ALA (American Livebearers Association) does not recognize mollies as brackish. Mollies are extremely adaptable and can handle salt levels all the way up to and including full Salt Water. If you bought your Mollies at a LFS then there is about a 99.99% chance that they are hybrids and barely even reflect the true wild form of these fish, which, I might add, are not truely brackish either. The argument has been made that Mollies do better in water with Salt. This is only true because the necessary water change regime for them is not usually followed. Mollies actually should be kept in full fresh water that is of the same quality as that in which you would keep Discus. However here's where the difference between Mollies and Discus comes in: Mollies can handle Salt and Discus can't. So what does this mean? Simple, adding salt to the water allows you to keep less than pristine water conditions for you mollies and due to the salt they will be more forgiving. If Discus could handle Salt I'm sure they would be thought of as brackish fish by now as well. But the reality is that Mollies are not a true brackish fish, they simply can adapt to the salt.
If you want to keep a Betta in with your mollies then then you are going to have to wean your mollies off the salt and get used to doing more frequent water changes.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Lumberjack — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:25:35 GMT

kewl.... and so the tanks begin to multiple :}

RE: New 10 Gallon

Nicolas — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:30:41 GMT

The planted tank is going to be separate from the quarantine tank. I am setting up 2 10 gallon tanks.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Lumberjack — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 08:36:05 GMT

You might want to consider what will happen if you do end up with a sick fish in the Quarentine tank..... You may be forced to disinfect everything including your plants. .....

Usually I set them up very spartan to minimise the losses. This is also why I tend to favor smaller ones as well.

RE: New 10 Gallon

Nicolas — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 08:12:51 GMT

I think I'll just forget about the Betta. I guess having two Mollies in a 10 will fill the tank up. I am so excited I just can't wait. I am going to be patient and wait for the 55 to cycle. Its so awesome how you get one aquarium and then you feel the need for more.

RE: New 10 Gallon

princessotfu — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:51:53 GMT

your betta will not tolerate the salt level, no.
Depending on how heavily you plant your tank, and with what kind of plants, you may not need the bio-spira at all. Even with only moderate planting, the tank won't cycle quite the same way as a regular tank, since your plants will be sucking up ammonia before the good bacteria can get around to it. Make sure to do your research before you plant it, so you know what's going on in your tank.
Good Luck!! That 55g plan you've got sounds pretty awesome.

New 10 Gallon

Nicolas — Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:07:42 GMT

Before I get any more fish I need to set up a quarantine tank. I think that everyone agrees on that. When I set up my quarantine tank I am going to set up a planted 10 Gallon. I want to use Bio-Spira in the cycling of it. I plan on moving my two Mollies into it and adding a Betta. The tank has 30 watts of light and is filtered with an eclipse hood that does 150 gallons per hour. What do you think? I am not quite sure if the Betta can handle the salt. I am thinking about eventually going with a South American Biotype in my 55 Gallon. Hopeful inhabitants will be Angelfish, Bleeding Heart Tetras, Corydoras Catfish, and Otocinclus.